Posts

The Same Subject Continued: Concerning Dangers from Foreign Force and Influence
For the Independent Journal.

Author: John Jay

To the People of the State of New York:

QUEEN ANNE, in her letter of the 1st July, 1706, to the Scotch Parliament, makes some observations on the importance of the UNION then forming between England and Scotland, which merit our attention. I shall present the public with one or two extracts from it: “An entire and perfect union will be the solid foundation of lasting peace: It will secure your religion, liberty, and property; remove the animosities amongst yourselves, and the jealousies and differences betwixt our two kingdoms. It must increase your strength, riches, and trade; and by this union the whole island, being joined in affection and free from all apprehensions of different interest, will be ENABLED TO RESIST ALL ITS ENEMIES.” “We most earnestly recommend to you calmness and unanimity in this great and weighty affair, that the union may be brought to a happy conclusion, being the only EFFECTUAL way to secure our present and future happiness, and disappoint the designs of our and your enemies, who will doubtless, on this occasion, USE THEIR UTMOST ENDEAVORS TO PREVENT OR DELAY THIS UNION.”

It was remarked in the preceding paper, that weakness and divisions at home would invite dangers from abroad; and that nothing would tend more to secure us from them than union, strength, and good government within ourselves. This subject is copious and cannot easily be exhausted.

The history of Great Britain is the one with which we are in general the best acquainted, and it gives us many useful lessons. We may profit by their experience without paying the price which it cost them. Although it seems obvious to common sense that the people of such an island should be but one nation, yet we find that they were for ages divided into three, and that those three were almost constantly embroiled in quarrels and wars with one another. Notwithstanding their true interest with respect to the continental nations was really the same, yet by the arts and policy and practices of those nations, their mutual jealousies were perpetually kept inflamed, and for a long series of years they were far more inconvenient and troublesome than they were useful and assisting to each other.

Should the people of America divide themselves into three or four nations, would not the same thing happen? Would not similar jealousies arise, and be in like manner cherished? Instead of their being “joined in affection” and free from all apprehension of different “interests,” envy and jealousy would soon extinguish confidence and affection, and the partial interests of each confederacy, instead of the general interests of all America, would be the only objects of their policy and pursuits. Hence, like most other BORDERING nations, they would always be either involved in disputes and war, or live in the constant apprehension of them.

The most sanguine advocates for three or four confederacies cannot reasonably suppose that they would long remain exactly on an equal footing in point of strength, even if it was possible to form them so at first; but, admitting that to be practicable, yet what human contrivance can secure the continuance of such equality? Independent of those local circumstances which tend to beget and increase power in one part and to impede its progress in another, we must advert to the effects of that superior policy and good management which would probably distinguish the government of one above the rest, and by which their relative equality in strength and consideration would be destroyed. For it cannot be presumed that the same degree of sound policy, prudence, and foresight would uniformly be observed by each of these confederacies for a long succession of years.

Whenever, and from whatever causes, it might happen, and happen it would, that any one of these nations or confederacies should rise on the scale of political importance much above the degree of her neighbors, that moment would those neighbors behold her with envy and with fear. Both those passions would lead them to countenance, if not to promote, whatever might promise to diminish her importance; and would also restrain them from measures calculated to advance or even to secure her prosperity. Much time would not be necessary to enable her to discern these unfriendly dispositions. She would soon begin, not only to lose confidence in her neighbors, but also to feel a disposition equally unfavorable to them. Distrust naturally creates distrust, and by nothing is good-will and kind conduct more speedily changed than by invidious jealousies and uncandid imputations, whether expressed or implied.

The North is generally the region of strength, and many local circumstances render it probable that the most Northern of the proposed confederacies would, at a period not very distant, be unquestionably more formidable than any of the others. No sooner would this become evident than the NORTHERN HIVE would excite the same ideas and sensations in the more southern parts of America which it formerly did in the southern parts of Europe. Nor does it appear to be a rash conjecture that its young swarms might often be tempted to gather honey in the more blooming fields and milder air of their luxurious and more delicate neighbors.

They who well consider the history of similar divisions and confederacies will find abundant reason to apprehend that those in contemplation would in no other sense be neighbors than as they would be borderers; that they would neither love nor trust one another, but on the contrary would be a prey to discord, jealousy, and mutual injuries; in short, that they would place us exactly in the situations in which some nations doubtless wish to see us, viz., FORMIDABLE ONLY TO EACH OTHER.

From these considerations it appears that those gentlemen are greatly mistaken who suppose that alliances offensive and defensive might be formed between these confederacies, and would produce that combination and union of wills of arms and of resources, which would be necessary to put and keep them in a formidable state of defense against foreign enemies.

When did the independent states, into which Britain and Spain were formerly divided, combine in such alliance, or unite their forces against a foreign enemy? The proposed confederacies will be DISTINCT NATIONS. Each of them would have its commerce with foreigners to regulate by distinct treaties; and as their productions and commodities are different and proper for different markets, so would those treaties be essentially different. Different commercial concerns must create different interests, and of course different degrees of political attachment to and connection with different foreign nations. Hence it might and probably would happen that the foreign nation with whom the SOUTHERN confederacy might be at war would be the one with whom the NORTHERN confederacy would be the most desirous of preserving peace and friendship. An alliance so contrary to their immediate interest would not therefore be easy to form, nor, if formed, would it be observed and fulfilled with perfect good faith.

Nay, it is far more probable that in America, as in Europe, neighboring nations, acting under the impulse of opposite interests and unfriendly passions, would frequently be found taking different sides. Considering our distance from Europe, it would be more natural for these confederacies to apprehend danger from one another than from distant nations, and therefore that each of them should be more desirous to guard against the others by the aid of foreign alliances, than to guard against foreign dangers by alliances between themselves. And here let us not forget how much more easy it is to receive foreign fleets into our ports, and foreign armies into our country, than it is to persuade or compel them to depart. How many conquests did the Romans and others make in the characters of allies, and what innovations did they under the same character introduce into the governments of those whom they pretended to protect.

Let candid men judge, then, whether the division of America into any given number of independent sovereignties would tend to secure us against the hostilities and improper interference of foreign nations.

PUBLIUS.

Tuesday, May 4th, 2010

Howdy from Texas. What a great conversation today. I have to tell you guys, or y’all, I am really learning from not only our guest scholars, but from you who blog. Today was a most thought provoking dialogue. I thank you for joining us and for spreading the word about our “90 in 90.” A great civic discussion, based on the founding principles of our country, is just what our country needs.

I thank Horace Cooper for his wonderful essay today. Thanks Horace!

I related to what Tricia said in her blog today regarding the fact that a union gives us the ability to disagree yet to unite in times of trouble. An analogy would be a family. Families may bicker but – watch out – because they will defend each other when one is confronted or in danger.

In relation to the founding era and Federalist No. 5, there was still so much to be imagined, discovered and resolved. There was an abundance of mystery in America. This is one of the brilliant aspects of Publius – they had such foresight, almost prophetic. They knew there were differences amongst the peoples of America, with a vast portion of America yet to be discovered and claimed, but they also new that it was better to be with each other rather than against one another; to be governed by a unified vision.

As our two hundred thirty -four years have evolved, it has become apparent that our differences did drive stakes into our passions but they did not dismember us. If we had not found stability as a burgeoning union then we would never have been able to survive the challenges that were to be wrought by the civil war and the great depression.. to name a few.

So what is the relevancy of Federalist No. 5 today? It is in defining the boundaries between the federal government and the states in the twenty first century. It is in the understanding of how much power our founding fathers really intended the federal government to have. It is in the reckoning and reconciling of the autonomy the states were intended to have and should have today. The answers to these questions are complex, especially because it is inordinately hard to rein back leniencies that have already been dispersed. Once one foot is in the door, it is very hard to close it again.  Has the federal government planted its boots upon our thresholds too boldly?

I dare say many of us would answer yes. I dare say many of us agree with Arizona in regard to the fact that she has the right to make her own laws, yet look at how her autonomy is disrupting the union. Is this not exactly what Publius was predicting? However, today, is the fault with the state or with the Federal government who failed to protect her and her people?  Or is it the state’s right to defend herself? Is this not addressed in the Constitution in Article I Section 8.16?  I, personally, would like to hear some thoughts from our scholars as to what exactly Article 1 Section 8.16 means in relation to Arizona.

It is only in the educating of America about the United States Constitution that these questions may be answered. Knowledge is power. We cannot appreciate what has been taken away if we have never known what was rightfully ours in the first place.

The monarchies of Europe didn’t want their “people” educated. An educated people meant that they would be able to see the truths. These truths are self-evident: If we don’t utilize our educated voice someone else will speak for us. And all of our rights will be lost.

God bless,

Oh, we have fixed it so all of the comments will be in the same place.. so please comment in the main essay’s comment box  (the guest scholar of the day’s  essay) from now on.. )

Janine Turner

 

Tuesday, May 4th, 2010

A big thank you to Horace Cooper for serving as our Guest Blogger for Federalist No. 5.  Excellent analysis from Horace, and great discussion!  Thank you to everyone for participating!   I would like to share a few of the lines and thoughts  from today’s post and blog comments that particulary resonated with me.

As many pointed out today, the Founding Fathers were visionary in their ability to look down the road and see what the future had in store for the United States.   They had this ability because they were keen students of history, political philosophy, and human nature.   David said it well,  “Clearly, our Founders were men of letters who understood the precedents of their age.”

As Susan H. pointed out, history does repeat itself. Our founders understood that fact much better than we do today.    These days we tend to believe we are immune to the cycles that every civilization has experienced throughout the ages.  If our forefathers were with us today, they would certainly be able to predict our future better than we can ourselves!

Carolyn pointed out Horace’s last line, which I loved:  ”The very large swath of land and significant population of America potentially were the greatest strength of the nation in unity but could be its greatest weakness in disunity.”  I felt that summed up Federalist #5 perfectly!

I am continuing to learn much from you all! Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. Please invite others to join us!

Looking forward to Federalist No. 6!

Cathy Gillespie

PS – We are working to consolidate all blog comments onto the Daily Guest Bloggers page, and Janine and I will be posting our daily essasy on the Guest Blogger’s Post as “Comments” as well as the usual standalone posts.  Please post all your blog comments on the Guest Bloggers Page so its easy to see all the great comments in one place! Thank you!

 

Tuesday, May 4th, 2010

John Jay continues explaining the need for a United States of America as opposed to either an association of 13 separate and individual states or a collection of three or four nation states.  Jay explains his view that there were significant arguments in favor of a union, specifically by arguing that the recent experience with England and Scotland offer good examples of the benefits.

“QUEEN ANNE, in her letter of the 1st July, 1706, to the Scotch Parliament, makes some observations on the importance of the Union then forming between England and Scotland, which merit our attention.”

Taking up an example that may have been familiar in the eyes of his readers was a useful means for Jay to use to help voters understand the issues that were at stake.  The situation facing Scotland and England provided an excellent rationale for the states to reconsider the developing position among some that a confederation or a breakup into separate states would be useful in the long term.

Jay concludes: “We may profit by their experience without paying the price which it cost them. Although it seems obvious to common sense that the people of such an island should be but one nation, yet we find that they were for ages divided into three, and that those three were almost constantly embroiled in quarrels and wars with one another. Notwithstanding their true interest with respect to the continental nations was really the same, yet by the arts and policy and practices of those nations, their mutual jealousies were perpetually kept inflamed, and for a long series of years they were far more inconvenient and troublesome than they were useful and assisting to each other.”

Moreover, the problem was not simply that 13 separate nations were never going to cooperate.  Jay argued that even if the States were to divide themselves into as many as three separate nations, they would still face problems that would ultimately jeopardize the well-being of the entire people. ”Should the people of America divide themselves into three or four nations, would not the same thing happen? Would not similar jealousies arise, and be in like manner cherished? Instead of their being “joined in affection” and free from all apprehension of different interests,” envy and jealousy would soon extinguish confidence and affection, and the partial interests of each confederacy, instead of the general interests of all America, would be the only objects of their policy and pursuits. Hence, like most other bordering nations, they would always be either involved in disputes and war, or live in the constant apprehension of them.”

In fact, it was Jay’s considered view that by their very nature there would be differences between the various nations now comprising the original 13 states; and that this would lead to disputes.  Perhaps you could imagine one nation having more commerce, another more population, still yet another possessing larger navy.  Whatever the differences might be – they could not be avoided because the nature of things would be that different influences would occur in each of the separate states — they ultimately would lead to conflicts or fear of conflict.  If you increased the number of nation states from three to 10, you likely would only increase the risks of conflict threefold or more because success or failure by one nation would cause her sister nation to take notice and feel some obligation to adjust in response.

“Whenever, and from whatever causes, it might happen, and happen it would, that any one of these nations or confederacies should rise on the scale of political importance much above the degree of her neighbors, that moment would those neighbors behold her with envy and with fear. Both those passions would lead them to countenance, if not to promote, whatever might promise to diminish her importance; and would also restrain them from measures calculated to advance or even to secure her prosperity. Much time would not be necessary to enable her to discern these unfriendly dispositions. She would soon begin, not only to lose confidence in her neighbors, but also to feel a disposition equally unfavorable to them.”

Jay recognizes that having one nation would eliminate all of those peculiar instances at least in terms of their perception to other countries and greatly attenuate the potential for envy or fear to develop internally.  Because as Jay recognized, nation states naturally are attentive to the concerns and changes that occur in other countries and tend to evaluate them in terms of  whether these changes either advance or retard their own perceived interests it is useful to minimize them wherever possible.

“Distrust naturally creates distrust, and by nothing is good-will and kind conduct more speedily changed than by invidious jealousies and uncandid imputations, whether expressed or implied.”  Jay concludes by pointing out that the very distance between the states and Western Europe made it more likely that any conflicts that would cause government leaders to take sides would occur here in the Americas and not with “distant nations.”

The very large swath of land and significant population of America potentially were the greatest strength of the nation in unity but could be its greatest weakness in disunity.

Horace Cooper is a Legal Commentator and Director of the Institute for Liberty’s Center for Law and Regulation

23 Responses to “May 42010 – Federalist No5 Concerning Dangers From Foreign Force and Influence (continuedGuestBloggerHorace CooperLegal Commentator and Director of the Institute for Liberty’s Center for Law and Regulation

  1. Brad Tepper says:

    This experience has been fantastic! Thank you Janine and Cathy.

    Now I am stumped. In 1786 John Jay argues for and attempts to secure specific and limited commerce for the Northeastern states with Spain. This was not his assignment either. I believe he was to negotiate rights for the entire confederation of 13 states with Spain. His actions, the Jay-Gardoqui Treaty, thankfully was never ratified.

    One year later, he authors Federalist #5. He then argues AGAINST such a negotiation and specific treaty for a factional section of the states.

    Can someone explain how this 180 seemed to occur? Who/What were the influences?

  2. Susan H. says:

    Good morning everyone,

    I had a few thoughts as I read #5. Jay writes “The history of Great Britain is the one which we are in general the best acquainted, and it gives us many useful lessons. We may profit by their experience without paying the price which it cost them.” I guess this just drove home the point that history does indeed repeat itself. It behooves us all to be students of history. I recently read a historical novel, The Constant Princess, by Philipia Gregoria. In that novel one of the constant worries of the King was invasion from the Scots in the north.

    The other thought I had was in regards to the AZ contoversy. It feels like that state is being forced into a us vs. them position. Instead of the federal government looking out for the Union, they are forcing states to protect their own interests. Now you have other states looking to boycott and withdraw invetments, etc. Sounds to me just like what John Jay was warning against.

    I continue to be impressed by the founding fathers.

  3. Chuck Plano, Tx says:

    Susan you are exaactly right the Federal Government has failed in it’s first responsibility and that is to protect our borders. This situation has existed for years it is not new. The border states have had to contend with the failure of the Federal Government and the other states have sat by and said it is not my problem. If we are to mantain this union we had better start thinking about what is best for all the states and not just our own. Texas has been at the for front of the EPA because of some of our emmisions but it is because we refine the majority of the oil and gas in this country if we did not the Northeast and Midwest would freeze in the winter and not have transportation. Remember the righters of the Federalist Papers were arguing for this Union with the Enumerated Powers in mind not this Government we see today.

  4. Carolyn Attaway says:

    Horace Cooper’s last line in his entry summed up Paper #5 for me; “The very large swath of land and significant population of America potentially were the greatest strength of the nation in unity but could be its greatest weakness in disunity.”

    I find it curious that I read this article on the day after I watched the 2nd part of the series “America – The Story of Us”. In the Series, the narrator explained how pioneers continued to expand the States through events such as the Lewis and Clark expedition, the Alamo, the Gold Rush and the Westward Movement in order to create a better life for themselves. The point that was constantly stressed that what made America so different from all other countries was the ability for their people to be free and that they could carve any life they wanted for themselves.

    The Series went on to explain how Americans in the West wanted to be connected with the East, so with the existance of steamboats and the building of the Erie Canal, the expansion of commerce crossed the continent and had a major impact of the American way of life.

    The great need for commerce and the economic differences between the Northern and Southern States led to a great discord within the Union. This difference eventually led to the Civil War.

    I think of the Civil War in this Paper, because I wonder if the Founders had not pushed so hard to create a Union, if the Civil War would have ended differently. Would the Southern States have remained intact, or consumed into the Northern States after their defeat? Would the Northern States have had the right to demand the abolishment and expansion of slavery?

    I find that the Founders relentless drive to form a Union may not have prevented disunity between the States, but the formation of the Union gave us an ending which could have otherwise been disastrous to America as a whole.

    Like Great Britain, the individual States could have spent years upon years of internal fighting; disrupting any chance of expanding their trade and increasing their strength to be a profitable nation. Instead the Civil War could have turned into multiple civil wars, weakening the states resources to the point of becoming a target for foreign countries to attack. Would we even be a Superpower today?

    Even today with the problems we are facing, there are faint whispers of state secession in the wind. I believe the Union should always remain intact. However; the powers the federal government currentlly holds should be scaled back and limited, and the state’s powers should be restored to their full capacity. Also, if the federal government fails to do its job in protecting the states from invasion (i.e. Arizona), then the states should have the right to protect themselves without federal naysaying.

  5. Neal C White says:

    Excellent comments by all on Federalist No 5. I cannot help but think that we are today experiencing a continuation of the argument that prompted Jay to write this piece. It seems to me that there is an effort to divide our country. It is amazing the number of so called pundits have written articles criticizing Arizona for the realistic passage of legislation suggesting that they wished to see the law upheld in their state. None of those who are protesting had any suggesting how to deal with the very real problems of murder, drugs, destroying of personal and public property to say nothing of the heavy burden of economic support demanded by the Illegal Immigrants.

    If this attitude continues we will see division of our great country in different groups just as Jay is warning us about – and for many of the same reasons he mentioned. Why do we, the citizens, allow this to happen. The vast majority of us are in agreement with Arizona and believe the rest of the Union should support similar action. We are headed for a very bad ending if something is not done to change this attitude and direction that America is now following.

  6. Chuck Plano, Tx says:

    The whole problem we have today is the Federal Government with the aid of the Courts exceding the Enumerated Power it was granted under the constitution. If the government operated today as was intended under the original intent of the Constitution the Federal Government would not be involved in 90% of the issues they are involved in today. Just look @ the move today to revise the Clean Water Act to read “all” water instead of just the navigatable waters. With this change the Federal Government will have control of any water in the United States including Playa Lakes. Is this what the Founders intended.

  7. Susan H. says:

    No Chuck, I don’t believe this is what the Founders intended. We the People have the power to make a change at the ballot box. The critical question is will the “vast silent majority” get of “our collective duffs” and do something about it. I think websites such as this one and other venues promoting basic civics education may be the key.

  8. David Hathaway says:

    Today’s Federalist Paper references the earlier letter from Queen Anne. An editorial I read today referenced even earlier the Magna Carta. Clearly, our Founders were men of letters who understood the precedents of their age. I surely wish our leaders today were as well versed. I would be pleasurably shocked to learn that any of our Congress were reading along with us.

    I live in Texas. We are proud of our state, and our superior policy and good management. We are fiercely jealous of our state’s power and push back on the Federal Government’s imposition of policies and costs. In the context of today’s reading, if we were still a Confederacy, it is not hard to imagine that the current AZ brouhaha would lead us to side with her, against the neglectful central government. Heck, we do already!

    Likewise, can’t you imagine Michigan or other economically challenged states looking enviously at Texas? It would be a war waiting to happen.

    I found it interesting that Jay touted the strength of the Northern Hive against that of the southern states. Remember, he was writing to encourage New Yorkers to ratify the Constitution. Isn’t saying “we are more powerful than those lazy southerners” more of an argument against the Constitution? If this were today, and the writer was a Texan, I bet there would be many voices that said, “what do we need New York for?”

  9. Andy Sparks says:

    Excellent comments and observations, especially Brad and Carolyn. I sometimes hear people say the nation would be better under the Articles of Confederation because the states were independently sovereign. However, they don’t seem to realize the internecine conflicts between borders and commerce that would arise if this were the case. Jay and the other Federalists saw first hand what path a loose confederation of nation states were headed. Eventually, even the United States under the Constitution could not hold the union together without a bloody war.

    Brad, I believe Jay thought that a 25 year moratorium on use of the Mississippi was reasonable at the time. The territories to the west of the Appalachians were still fairly sparse and perhaps he felt getting Spanish agreement in writing that the river would eventually revert to the U.S. was more important than instant gratification. Also, I don’t think he realized the deep resentment the southern states and western territories had for his negotitations until after the treaty was vilified and eventually not ratified. I think it speaks well to him that he realized the mistake that was almost made and changed his line of thinking regarding it.

  10. Melanie says:

    To Brad Tepper, I am equally confused about John Jay’s apparent 180 on the virtue of states’ sovereignty verses a strong federal government. I look forward to others’ comments on this.

  11. Ron Meier says:

    @ Carolyn. Re the Civil War. Would there even have been a Civil War if a Confederation had continued, with the slave states being soverign? Possibly not, but there might have been other wars between the various Confederacies. We just don’t know, because that’s not the path we chose.
    We can look at current day Europe for an example of what might have been. Effectively, the EU is a confederation. Look at the problems that are occuring right now with the Greece situation. We can see the very things the writers of the Federalist were warning us against coming to pass in the EU. The other members of the EU confederation are becoming self centered now that they may have to rescue member Greece. They are asking why should they have to pony up money to rescue their member which has not been fiscally responsible. It will be instructive to see how that one plays out over the next months and years.

  12. Melanie says:

    Today in The American Thinker is an article entitled “Declaration of Independence As Law”,
    written by Ronald R. Cherry. It begins “Our American Declaration of Independence is the supreme, unamendable lawof the United States. Declarational law preceded and trumps our supreme, amendable secular law, the Constitution. As stated in our Declaration, the purpose of secular law (Constitution) is to secure our sacred, unalienable, equal, individual rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness–i.e., private property honestly earned through creative labor : ‘That to secure these rights, Governments [constitutions] are instituted among Men…’ While our Constitution and Bill or Rights are the greatest secular laws ever written, it must be acknowledged that our secular Constitution has a sacred mandate–the Declaration of Independence.

    It’s well worth reading the entire article, the premise is sound.

  13. Carolyn Attaway says:

    @Ron, I think a civil war would have ensued eventually; just like today we do not like to see other people in other countries being mistreated or enslaved, the people of the North would have began to challenge the morality of slavery. It would still have been an issue.

    Greece is a scary situation because the unions in that country have cuddled the Greek citizens for so long. The citizens are rioting in the streets for cut backs such as getting paid for 12 months out of the year instead of 14. Can you imagine?

  14. john jay was a brilliant man who along with the other authors of the federalist papers helped to address issues that the american people felt needed to be addressed. the federalist papers however seem to address issues that hadnt even happened yet. . some of the federalist paers seem to forshadow the civil war that devistated this country. at this time the federal government was trying to force the country to become a union, and this along with issues such as slaverymay have caused the civil war in 1862

  15. Susan H. says:

    To Ron – that is an excellent point you bring up about the EU!

  16. Carolyn Merritt says:

    In my opinion Jay was prescient in using the example of the north being generally “the region of strength” and at some time in the future exert the power over the southern portions of the confederacies. They would not act as neighbors but as borderers, would be prey to discords, jealousies, etc. In short, we would be in exactly the situations which some nations want to see us – formidable only to each other. Was Jay talking about the future civil war?

    @Ron, not only are we seeing what Jay wrote about happening in Europe, we are seeing it happening here on our own shores today. As he states in Federalist 4 . Now we were a nation that could defend ourselves, and provide ourselves with goods and not only that could now export these same goods to other countries cheaper than they could produce them. What has happened to our commerce? It has gone overseas. We no longer manufacture and export goods that are cheaper than other countries can produce. We no longer provide ourself with goods that we produce.

  17. Tricia says:

    @ David. I agree. States wax and wane in power and if they were all independent of each other as under the Articles of Confederation, every state would have some resentment against the others for some past fight or jealousy.

    Under the Constitution, the states can get along (to an extent). By being united as one entity, the separate states can still have their differences, but also work together during times of hardship, such as the Great Depression.

  18. WeThePeople says:

    One of the extracts from the union in England states that a strong union will be able to resist any enemy. It also suggests that our union would be divided by the North and South from the very start. Hmm, it seems that the founding fathers hint about a civil war a lot…So, for the civil war, since part of the union became it’s own enemy, does that detract from our strength as a whole? I know it did at the time, but overall, was it for the best?
    This paper seems to focus on the fact that it would be a burden NOT to separate ourselves from Britain. Wonder how parliment reacted to these papers.

  19. Peter says:

    What is important to conisder is the context – remember the Federalist Papers were printed/published in New York and were, largely, about persuading New Yorkers to accept the idea of a new nation with a new system of government. Virginia was the largest colony while Pennsylvania was probably the strongest in economic terms. Without New York the country could of – and probably would have – split into a northern country and a southern country. What Jay is doing here in one of the last papers he wrote is to build the case for unity from Massachusetts to Georgia. And he does a brilliant job, in my opinion.

  20. A big thank you to Horace Cooper for serving as our Guest Blogger for Federalist No5. Excellent analysis fromHorace, and great discussion! Thank you to everyone for participating! I would like to share a few of the lines and thoughts from today’s post and blog comments that particulary resonated with me.

    As many pointed out today, the Founding Fathers were visionary in their ability to look down the road and see what the future had in store for the United States. They had this ability because they were keen students of history, political philosophy, and human nature. David said it well, “Clearly, our Founders were men of letters who understood the precedents of their age.”

    As Susan H. pointed out, history does repeat itself. Our founders understood that fact much better than we do today. These days we tend to believe we are immune to the cycles that every civilization has experienced throughout the ages. If our forefathers were with us today, they would certainly be able to predict our future better than we can ourselves!

    Carolyn pointed out Horace’s last line, which I loved: “The very large swath of land and significant population of America potentially were the greatest strength of the nation in unity but could be its greatest weakness in disunity.” I felt that summed up Federalist #5 perfectly!

    I am continuing to learn much from you all! Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. Please invite others to join us!

    Looking forward to Federalist No. 6!

    Cathy Gillespie

    PS – We are working to consolidate all blog comments onto the Daily Guest Bloggers page, and Janine and I will be posting our daily essasy on the Guest Blogger’s Post as “Comments” as well as the usual standalone posts. Please post all your blog comments on the Guest Bloggers Page so its easy to see all the great comments in one place! Thank you!

  21. Seij De Leon says:

    The reasoning in Jay’s writing is solid, there wouldn’t of been any other way to make this nation powerful without unity. But it wasn’t a problem free solution, even as the states came together there was still constant internal bickering mainly between the North and South concerning slavery. Had the United States not been formed, their would have been no single power to regulate decisions concerning slavery in newly formed states and separated states could have made chaos in fighting for what they want, earlier in time than just the civil war.

  22. Howdy from Texas. What a great conversation today. I have to tell you guys, or y’all, I am really learning from not only our guest scholars, but from you who blog. Today was a most thought provoking dialogue. I thank you for joining us and for spreading the word about our “90 in 90.” A great civic discussion, based on the founding principles of our country, is just what our country needs.

    I thank Horace Cooper for his wonderful essay today. Thanks Horace!

    I related to what Tricia said in her blog today regarding the fact that a union gives us the ability to disagree yet to unite in times of trouble. An analogy would be a family. Families may bicker but – watch out – because they will defend each other when one is confronted or in danger.

    In relation to the founding era and Federalist No5, there was still so much to be imagined, discovered and resolved. There was an abundance of mystery in America. This is one of the brilliant aspects of Publius – they had such foresight, almost prophetic. They knew there were differences amongst the peoples of America, with a vast portion of America yet to be discovered and claimed, but they also new that it was better to be with each other rather than against one another; to be governed by a unified vision.

    As our two hundred thirty -four years have evolved, it has become apparent that our differences did drive stakes into our passions but they did not dismember us. If we had not found stability as a burgeoning union then we would never have been able to survive the challenges that were to be wrought by the civil war and the great depression.. to name a few.

    So what is the relevancy of Federalist No5 today? It is in defining the boundaries between the federal government and the states in the twenty first century. It is in the understanding of how much power our founding fathers really intended the federal government to have. It is in the reckoning and reconciling of the autonomy the states were intended to have and should have today. The answers to these questions are complex, especially because it is inordinately hard to rein back leniencies that have already been dispersed. Once one foot is in the door, it is very hard to close it again. Has the federal government planted its boots upon our thresholds too boldly?

    I dare say many of us would answer yes. I dare say many of us agree with Arizona in regard to the fact that she has the right to make her own laws, yet look at how her autonomy is disrupting the union. Is this not exactly what Publius was predicting? However, today, is the fault with the state or with the Federal government who failed to protect her and her people? Or is it the state’s right to defend herself? Is this not addressed in the Constitution in Article I Section 8.16? I, personally, would like to hear some thoughts from our scholars as to what exactly Article 1 Section 8.16 means in relation to Arizona.

    It is only in the educating of America about the United States Constitution that these questions may be answered. Knowledge is power. We cannot appreciate what has been taken away if we have never known what was rightfully ours in the first place.

    The monarchies of Europe didn’t want their “people” educated. An educated people meant that they would be able to see the truths. These truths are self-evident: If we don’t utilize our educated voice someone else will speak for us. And all of our rights will be lost.

    God bless,

    Janine Turner
    5.4.10

  23. Kellie says:

    The conflict in AZ today really brings home this issue of unity and states’ rights which is so important to understand if we are to protect our country. The federal government needs to get back to playing the role of protecting the states by enforcing the federal laws already put in place. By turning their back on AZ, they are essentially advocating the disunity. I never really understood how important it was to give the states rights to govern their citizens, yet have the federal government to protect and govern the states. I think the only hope is that people of America and especially AZ understand these concepts and educate each other on the consequences of disunity, and they not let our federal government forget the original principles as discussed in these papers.

 

 

Wednesday, May 5th, 2010

Federalist #6

Essay number five closed with recognition that what is decisive in human communities is the political distinction, the political identity. That settles the question of what is “near and dear.” That distinction lies at the root of warfare. It follows accordingly that one lessens the chance of war by setting thins up so that people will call the same things “near and dear.” This means, at a minimum of course, that when people seek to resolve their most important questions they will all expect the authoritative answer to come from the same source. They will all appeal to the same Solomon.

None of this means that Publius envisions a human landscape from which all war has been eliminated. He described controlling war within the precise political environment of the United States by means of constructing a political identity for these people called Americans. This is made clear in essay number six, in which Publius speaks explicitly against utopian speculation.

Men, he argues, are ambitious, vindictive, and rapacious. They are so because they differ regarding the things that are near and dear to them. One reacts to those things which are not one’s own more under the influence of those passions of ambition, vindictiveness, or rapaciousness than with in respect to what is one’s own. The founding seeks to insulate this characteristic in human beings by teaching some set of human beings to hold the same things “near and dear.”

Note, too, that the statement about human character does not add the familiar phrase, “by nature.” It is not necessary to conclude that human nature is evil in order to see that certain evil (fallenness) is attached to human nature. There is another view that human nature itself is evil, that is sometimes falsely attributed to Publius. This very negative portrait of constitutionalism makes it appear that the whole purpose of the constitution is to prevent Americans from doing all the evil they can to one another.

The first essays in The Federalist Papers convey exactly the opposite picture: it is admitted that evil is possible; it is admitted that government is necessary; it is admitted that people do violence; it is admitted that there are causes of war rooted in human nature; but there is still the positive endeavor, which is the real driving force of this founding, and that is the endeavor to build a nation of one people who call the same things near and dear.

This emerges clearly in the third paragraph of essay number six:

The causes of hostility among nations are innumerable. There are some which have a general and almost constant operation upon the collective bodies of society: Of this description are the love of power or the desire of pre-eminence and dominion – the jealousy of power, or the desire of equality and safety. There are others which have a more circumscribed, though an equally operative influence, within their spheres: Such are the rivalships and competitions of commerce between commercial nations. And there are others not less numerous than either of the former, which take their origin intirely [sic] in private passions: in the attachments, enmities, interests, hopes, and fears of leading individuals in the communities of which they are members.

These separate categories that Publius has listed all relate to one another, but the most important thing about them is that they are distinct, separate. The love of power, to take an example, is different from the private passions. The rivalries and competitions of commerce also differ from private passions. In a manner of speaking, these factors may not be passions at all, they may be perfectly rational. If by passions, we mean what is not rational, then we cannot call all these things “passions.” That means that the causes of war are not necessarily irrational.

To imagine that wars come about only because of failures of reason is probably one of the greatest mistakes. Some wars are thoroughly rational. Above all, ina case wehre people palce themselves ina situation to invite war. Let’s remember essays three and four: “the nation must place itself in such a situation that it will not invite war.” It will invite friendly intercourse, not war; which is why prosperity is a precondition for peace rather than a consequence of peace.

Having made that distinction, and having distinguished the private passions from other conceivable causes of war, we now note that the private passions are not less interesting because they are arational. For they bear upon the question of public opinion, and the preceding discussion turns almost entirely upon the question of public opinion.

In paragraph seven of essay six Publius again discussed the general clauses and examples of wars, now focused on the United States. He remarked that great national events sometimes are produced by petty personal matters, and he described Daniel Shays of Massachusetts as a desperate debtor. Then he added that it is much to be doubted whether there had bee a rebellion had Shays not been a desperate debtor. Thus, Publius wonders out loud whether the brief civil war was caused because a desperate person was carried away or because a person of enormous capacity for leadership was desperate. Accordingly, private passion must be taken into account no less than rational opportunities. If Shays with his talent had not been made desperate, he had not organized thousands of debtors and farmers.

In the next two paragraph Publius set up a measure of the distance what he called visionary or designing men, on the hand, and the hardheaded realists of political life on the other hand:

The genius of republics (say they) is pacific; the spirit of commerce has a tendency to soften the manners of men and to extinguish those inflammable humours which have so often kindled into wars. Commercial republics, like ours, will never e disposed to waste themselves in ruinous contentions with each other. They will be governed by mutual interest, and will cultivate a spirit of mutual amity and concord.

What a lovely, visionary portrait of the modern dispensation! But Publius rejects it, no matter how close it comes to the view that prosperity is a precondition for peace. Publius says that it is not enough to form a republic and to practice commerce. In fact, he responds to both issues, when he wonders whether “it is not the true interest of all nations, whether republics or not, to cultivate the same benevolent and philosophic spirit.” Commerce may well soften manners, but it equally well provides new occasions for jealousies, new occasions for conflict. In short, Publius rejects the new and modern principles of the enlightenment, that greater human understanding will eliminate causes for war.

Publius’s argument is particular to the political organization of the untied States. Our discussion emerged from considering domestic violence. Publius examined commerce among the states, but noted that the commerce would not disappear because of Union. The only difference is a difference in practice or habitude. The various states (New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, say) would experience the same necessities. But under the Union they would all turn to the same source for help when problems arise. They would call the same thing near and dear by turning to a single Solomon. IT is the act of agreeing upon a single Solomon that predisposes men to be more peaceful with one another, more like brothers than enemies.

W. B. Allen

Dean and Professor of Emeritus

Michigan State University

27 Responses to “May 5, 2010Federalist No. 6Concerning Dangers from Dissensions Between the States, for the Indpendent Journal (Hamilton) – Guest Blogger: W. B. Allen, Dean and Professor Emeritus, Michigan State University

  1. Maggie says:

    I found it very striking that he brought up the jealousies that can and will occur between states due to successes. Is this not what is happening today with our jealousy of corporate America? We want the fruit of other’s successes.

    I was also moved by this paper because, to me, it seems to reflect upon the current unrest and calls for dissension by a few states. We look to each other (as states) and want what others have or don’t worry about other’s problems because we don’t see them as our own. Hamilton knew so many years ago that this could be an issue.

  2. Susan Craig says:

    The first five papers argue for the primary reason for government defense of the people. Now in six it is posited that the next reason for a national government arbitration between the sovereign states to peaceably resolve differences. They do not start from the belief that man is inherently good, argue from the knowledge that man is inherently flawed and sinful and will often act from any of the seven deadly sins (greed, lust, etc.)

  3. Bache says:

    B. Franklin once said, “They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.” I believe the life of every American citizen and or state was and is impacted by the whole, ie. one nation. Relinquishing a liberty for the short term forsakes longterm security. “We must indeed all hang together or most assuredly, we shall hang separately.” This famous quotation by Benjamin Franklin is a principle our Founding Fathers agreed to not only as a nation but personally by pledging their fortunes, families, and honor. Who today would be willing to take such an oath as this?

  4. trish says:

    Susan I really like how you brought a central theme for the first 5 papers. Good thought!

  5. Kay says:

    Hamilton’s sentences are long and more involved than John Jay’s, and take more concentration on my part. The essays and commentaries on each Paper condenses the information, bringing out the highlights. I am so enjoying this series.

  6. Samantha Curtis says:

    None of this means that Publius envisions a human landscape from which all war has been eliminated. He described controlling war within the precise political environment of the United States by means of constructing a political identity for these people called Americans.

    — So he is saying that America is not prefect that we are always going to have wars. But we need to control the war in a political way?

  7. Carolyn Attaway says:

    After reading Alexander Hamilton on #6, I realize how much I miss John Jay’s writings. John Jay was very concise, whereas I find Hamilton’s words very flowery. It reminds me of when Abigail Adams told her husband “John, people know you are highly educated, you don’t have to remind them in your speeches.” I guess I am going to be an unhappy camper for awhile

    That being said, there were 2 phrases that jumped out at me: “A man must be far gone in Utopian speculations who can seriously doubt that,” and “There have been, if I may so express it, almost as many popular as royal wars”.

    One definition of Utopian is an ardent but impractical political or social reformer; visionary; idealist. I believe we are experiencing this mindset today regarding our national security. Many believe we only need to discuss our differences with those that oppose us and we can solve all our problems. This is unrealistic for many reasons, and as Hamilton explains, this logic forgets that some men are ambitious, vindictive and rapacious for no other reason than human nature. Hamilton realizes that most people strive for a Utopia, but he writes that because of the many causes of hostility between nations, this place is seldom, if ever found.

    The second phrase regarding popular versus royal wars, reminded me of when the majority of Americans supported the IRAQ war, when their passions ran high and demanded action for the horrendous crime committed on our soil. The outcome of this war has split our Nation after several years because of many reasons, and now many question why we entered the war in the first place.

    @Bache Today, only about 50% of the American population if you take in consideration that about 47% now receive some form of government entitlement.

  8. Susan says:

    @Carolyn, I so totally agree with you on the styles of the two writers. Hamilton requires my complete attention. That being said, I am so impressed with how the Founding Fathers have anticipated all these problems in the future.

  9. Roger Jett says:

    The Federalist Papers , as other commenters have pointed out, were directed toward a New York readership in hopes of bringing them into the camp that was arguing for a strong national government. Hamilton in particular wrote from a point of view that didn’t play as well in other parts of the country. This I think was particularly true of Paper #6 as some perception has been (both past and present) that he trivalized and mocked the plight of a very large portion of the citizenry when he labeled their protests as disturbances, revolts and rebellions. These people who had been made destitute by the war and by subsequent economic depressions, felt severely oppressed by their government. Those in position of power demanded payment of obligations in gold or silver. Many soldiers, farmers and other contributors to the war effort found themselves after the war undercompensated or even unpaid entirely for their sacrifices. The continental notes at that point in time were devalued to the point that they were widely considered of little or no value. The courts confiscated property to settle debts and many found themselves in debtor’s prison. A few protestors found themselves hung for treason! In this paper Hamilton mentions situations in three of the states ….North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Massachuetts. In his commentary Professor Allen identifies for us Shay’s Rebellion as the Masssachuetts’ incidence. I believe the disturbance in Pennsylvania that Hamilton alludes to would be the “Fries Rebellion” which is were the people were being assessed taxes for the number of windows they had in their homes (this was way before they had tanning beds). I presume, but may be doing so wrongly that the reference to North Carolina was referring to the establishment of the temporary and unrecognized State of Franklin which was located at what is today eastern Tennessee, but which was at that time considered a part of western North Carolina. The Federalist Party took political hits from their opponents due to the perception they were often against the common people in these various events and others. In saying all of this, I have no intentions of taking away or minimizing the enormous contribution that Hamilton made in leading our country to a magnificient republic with a constitution that is enequaled and has long endured the test of time. Hamilton is certainly deserving of the great honor bestowed upon him as a ” Founding Father.”

  10. Andy Sparks says:

    Hamilton speaks directly to the weakness of the federal government under the Articles of Confederation in this essay: “Let the point of extreme depression to which our national dignity and credit have sunk,…from a lax and ill administration of government.” The loose confederation under the AOC is causing the new found freedom established by the Declaration of Independence to be threatened both without and within. Only under a new government such as proposed by the as yet ratified Constitution can prevent the discord among the states (such as Shay’s Rebellion) from ruination.

  11. Laurie says:

    I too need assistance with Hamilton’s writings, so I want to thank professor Allen for his helpful comments. I was struck by his use of what is “near and dear” to us as a nation, our political identity, what truly holds us together as Americans. That identity has been under such terrible attack by so many for so long, that it has undermined our unity as a people. Now we are being pushed into groups, not so much warring states, except for Arizona, but isn’t that really a group identity issue, too. It is not the states at war so much as the political groups we are being made to identify with and to feel are more important than anything else. Aren’t people thinking of their political identity with their group, rather than with America as a whole? Aren’t we being set up here with the shift to think of what is “near and dear” to our group, rather than to our country?

  12. Howdy from Texas! I thank y’all for joining us! Federalist No. 6 is yet another fascinating reading. Yes? I want to thank our Constitutional scholar, W.B. Allen, for breaking down Federalist Paper No. 6 with such superb detail.
    Thanks Mr. Allen!

    The complexity of this particular paper is mesmerizing.
    I am enthralled by the examples of former empires, the rise and fall of these republics, and the reasons why. The relevancies in today’s reading are many but the warnings are simple and the question singular. How to we keep the United States of America from failing? The warnings from history provide wisdom. The republics of Sparta, Athens, Rome and Carthage were ruined by wars and greed, Holland was overwhelmed in debt and taxes and England and France were beleaguered by antipathy toward one another.

    It is interesting to reflect upon the fact that one of the reasons Alexander Hamilton, John Jay and James Madison could make such brilliant observations is because of their superb education. Alexander Hamilton should be an inspiration to many who believe that one has to be born into wealth to receive such an education. I wrote about Alexander Hamilton’s mother in my book, “Holding Her Head High.” Alexander was raised by his single mother, who by example, taught him at an early age the art of business and the spirit of tenacity. Yet, he was very poor. When his mother died he was in desperate need of a new pair of shoes. He may have had no shoes but he had spirit, determination and true grit.

    Are these not qualities that Americans hold “Near and Dear” – spirit, determination and true grit. These American characteristics were why we won the Revolutionary war and these are the qualities that keep America great today. We are a country, a republic, where one may dare to dream. We are a country where, according to our Constitution, no one may receive titles of Nobility. We are a country where a boy born in a single room log cabin becomes President, where men raised by single mother’s become President, to name a few examples. We are a country where vision, perseverance and willingness to work hard can nurture the seeds of talent, in any man or woman, to fruition. In this respect we are all equal. In this respect we must hold “Near and Dear” our free enterprise, which yields the vast fruits of commerce, industry and personal ingenuity keeping America vibrant, solvent and safe.

    God Bless,

    Janine Turner
    5.5.10

  13. Maggie says:

    @ Carolyn…….You have a way of putting into words exactly what I am thinking after reading these papers. I can’t thank you enough for your contributions here.

    Laurie stated “Aren’t people thinking of their political identity with their group, rather than with America as a whole?”……and I couldn’t agree more. We need to stop thinking about issues on a “Right” or “Left” (or Republican vs Democrat) basis and get back to doing what is right for America.

  14. David Hathaway says:

    I personally enjoy Hamilton’s writing style. He uses difficult but valuable words that an earlier reader would have understood quicker than us. I am reminded of the difference between Spanish and English. Spanish tends to use more, easier, words while English uses longer, meatier words. The net result is that Romance language writings take more space. Just imagine how long this Paper would have been if Jay had written it!

    I find it interesting that Hamilton invokes Shay’s Rebellion. Again, I find it timely. DESPERATE DEBTOR Daniel Shay was largely desperate and in debt because his government had levied such high taxes. Massachusetts levied high taxes to pay off their war debt. So crushing was the tax burden that citizens insurrected against their own government!

    The experience was fresh in Hamilton’s mind as he became the first Secretary of the Treasury. It spurred him to address the National debt (not independent State debts), ultimately forming the First Bank of the United States.

    I think the rebellion is timely, because our present government is likewise saddling us with debt. How long will it be before we are inflicted with crushing tax rates? How long will it be before Tea Parties become Shay’s Rebellions? Well, at least to the mainstream media!

    I mentioned before the biography of Alexander Hamilton by Andrew Chernow. It’s very readable, as you’d want while straining the Federalist Paper soup. If you read the few chapters on Hamilton circa the post-Revolution and pre-Constitution, you might have even more insights.

  15. Carolyn Attaway says:

    @ Maggie . . . Thank you so much for your kind words. I, too, enjoy everyone’s contributions to this site. I have learned so much already!

  16. Chuck Plano, Tx says:

    I totally agree with getting back to doing what is right for America but remember we must think in terms of the Enumerated Powers of the Federal Government and not what has become today a total Federal System that has usurped the power of the States and the People.

  17. ERL says:

    After completion of the Federalist (and possibly Joseph Story’s Commentaries on the Constitution), I would recommend reading a biography of Alexander Hamilton. He had one of the most fascinating careers in American Politics. Unfortunately, he has been cast as the “villian” of the Founding Fathers, but our political, economic, and governmental system is more in line with his vision than that of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison.

    Hamilton wrote the Federalist Papers with little editing, making the finished product all the more impressive. (When he grew tired of writing, his wife recorded his dictation). He was also instrumental in creating the initial cabinet departments (he was the first Secretary of the Treasury), and in establishing the Presidency as a powerful policy-making branch of government, rather than simply an adminsitrator for Congress. Evidently, Jefferson and Madison envisioned a British-style Parliamentary system, where the leader of Congress would also be the leader (i.e., Prime Minster) of the US Government.

    Alexander Hamilton is probably the most misunderstood of our Founding Fathers.

  18. Ron Meier says:

    Two phrases struck me in Prof. Allen’s post. First, “prosperity is a precondition for peace rather than a consequence of peace.” Second, “IT is the act of agreeing upon a single Solomon that predisposes men to be more peaceful with one another, more like brothers than enemies.”

    As I mentioned a couple days ago, with respect to the first phrase, conflict is normal & peace is abnormal. Where properity doesn’t exist in the world, nations are run by dictators and seem to be in a state of constant civil war. Increasing prosperity does seem to have helped us avoid civil war for the past 150 years. Now, though, it seems that some of our countrymen are setting up prosperity as a straw man to be attacked and vilified and drawn and quartered in the name of peace through equal outcomes. Instead we should praise God for the prosperity that has enabled us to be the most generous nation on the face of the earth and the nation that other nations call upon to bring them peace.

    As to the second phrase, I wonder, what is the SINGLE SOLOMON upon which we might all, left and right, agree upon today that might nullify the internal conflict that is beginning to tear us apart? Troops in combat have that single Solomon, which is that they shed their blood and endure personal hardships for their comrades; that makes them a Band of Brothers. We don’t seem to have that single thing that makes all Americans feel like a Band of Brothers; we don’t endure much hardship together and we certainly don’t have each other’s backs to watch out for. Remember Curly from City Slickers who said the secret to life is ONE THING; Mitch asked what the one thing was and Curly’s response was “that’s what you’ve got to figure out.” We’ve got to figure out what our one thing is. While we might all agree on the qualities that Janine mentioned as those American hold near and dear, they appear important, but not sufficient, today to be our single Solomon. It seems that we, collectively, need to agree upon that before we can overcome our current internal conflicts. Anyone have any ideas on that Single Solomon? Or, as Curly might say, that one thing?

  19. Andy Sparks says:

    David, Hamilton addressd both the national AND the state debt. His assumption plan incorporated all the individual state debts with the national debt. The federal government would assume all the debt and pay off the interest only at a guaranteed rate. This would establish good credit with the rest of the world and insure that the wealthiest classes of America would be heavily vested in the success of the United States federal government: a very shrewd plan that worked wonders at putting the new nation on solid financial ground.

    But you are right about early hints at his eventual policy in Federalist #6. I think he was saying that if the debt crises created by individual states financially at odds with one another were replaced by a government that did something like assume all of their debt, perhaps Shays would not have had a reason to rebel.

  20. Roger Jett says:

    Would like to make a correction to a tidbit in my earlier post this afternoon. I had speculated that Hamilton was referring to the “Fries Rebellion” when he alluded to a late menacing disburbance in Pennsylvania. Well that was wrong since this rebellion took place about twelve years after the ” Federalist Papers” were written. It’s a small matter, but does anyone know what event Hamilton was referring to ? My initial thought had been the “Whiskey Rebellion” of western Pennsylvania, but that took place later also.

  21. Andy Sparks says:

    Roger, Hamilton was referring to an incident in the Wyoming region of Pennsylvania where a group of people were trying to separate with other local regions to form their own state. It was serious enough that the Pennsylvania legislature resolved to call out the militia if things had gotten worse. See the minutes of the the legislature below:

    http://www.archive.org/stream/minutesofgeneral178790penn#page/n11/mode/2up

  22. WeThePeople says:

    Bringing up previous regions and unions that have experienced internal conflict… What is it with the federalist papers authors and the idea of an imminent civil war? This subject was touched upon in all of the federalist papers so far, and it was mentioned in the Constitution. It’s like they are psychic or something… just kidding, but I do find it strange.
    Roger Jett, if your previous assumptions about the rebellion were wrong, which one is it referring to? Any further insights?

  23. Jim Sykes says:

    In response to Ron Meier. There is no “one thing” for all individuals and that is what I believe Curly was trying to tell Mitch. The reference to Solomon to me refers to the Solomon of the Bible. To answer Ron’s question about “my one thing” is my belief in God and His power to heal our nation if we will simply pray for Him to do so. I ask each person who reads this to do exactly that tomorrow at your local meeting to observe our National Day of Prayer. A special thank you to Janine and Cathy and may God bless you all for participating here and for trying to return our great nation to it’s rightful place as our Creator intended.

  24. Ron Meier says:

    That may be the “one thing” we’re lacking as a nation, Jim. “One nation, Under God.” It is being undermined every day.

  25. Hi everyone – thank you to Professor Allen for your enlightening essay! And thank you to everyone for your comments today.

    I love the realism of Alexander Hamilton: “men are ambitious, vindictive, and rapacious. To look for a continuation of harmony between a number of independent, unconnected sovereignties in the same neighborhood, would be to disregard the uniform course of human events, and to set at defiance the accumulated experience of ages.”

    We are fortunate our founding fathers were well read students of history, philosophy and political systems. They understood that we, as humans, are imperfect, and that civilizations through the ages have fallen victim to the character flaws of their leaders and citizens, time and time again. The Constitution they proposed, with its delicate checks and balances, was designed to take man’s nature into account.

    My favorite line from this essay was “Is it not time to awake from the deceitful dream of a golden age, and to adopt as a practical maxim for the direction of our political conduct that we, as well as the other inhabitants of the globe, are yet remote from the happy empire of perfect wisdom and perfect virtue?”

    Over 200 years later, we, and the rest of the world, are still “remote from the happy empire of perfect wisdom and perfect virtue”-a state humans will most likely never attain. As we consider how we deal with Iran and other terrorist nations, we should remember Alexander Hamilton’s words, and not assume we can simply talk things out. These nations have not had the benefit of freedom. Oppression breads violence, and reinforces man’s darker side.

    The United States of America, though, is one of the greatest humanitarian and charitable nations on the planet. How is that possible, given the nature of man as described by Hamilton? Our founders – we the people – designed a government based on Godly principles, ceding only enough power to the government to keep man’s darker side in check, but allowing the freedom necessary for our better qualities to flourish, and be brought to bear upon the problems facing our Nation and the world.

    Cathy Gillespie

    PS – We are working to consolidate all blog comments onto the Daily Guest Bloggers page, and Janine and I will be posting our daily essasy on the Guest Blogger’s Post as “Comments” as well as the usual standalone posts. Please post all your blog comments on the Guest Bloggers Page so its easy to see all the great comments in one place! Thank you!

  26. Jesse Stewart says:

    Many of you have commented in a similar way to mine today. My initial reaction to this paper was that Hamilton’s argument made sense, but upon reflection realized that even the holding the same “near and dear” can’t always keep the states together – we had a Civil War after all! From disagreements over land in the early days of our nation to today when states and other governmental entities are fighting Arizona over its own state law and states taking sides on the constitutionality of health care reform, we will never get rid of the personal and “momentary passions” that afflict man.

    We’ve come through disagreements before and united in times of crisis – I hope we will do so this time!

  27. Tim Shey says:

    The nature of life is antagonism. Life is war; war is life. Why? Because of our fallen nature. As long as there is Christ and Satan at work in human endeavor, there will always be conflict. Alexander Hamilton knew this. We need limited government to protect the innocent and powerless from those that would abuse their power.

    As a Christian, my life is governed by the Lord. If I abide in Christ (or if I am strong in Christ), then it is very hard for Satan to tempt me or influence me. If I am an unbeliever or weak in Christ, it is much easier for Satan to disrupt my life.

    If a nation is morally weak, this invites attack from other nations. The Marxist remedy is to concentrate on education (liberal propaganda) and redistribution of wealth and a mega government that solves all of our problems and everything will be fine and dandy because there is no such thing as Original Sin. The Christian remedy is to repent of our sin, seek God and the Lord will heal our land–and then the Lord will raise up righteous men to govern the nation.

    When the Israelites were in sin, they wanted a king to govern them just like the nations around them. But this is being conformed to the world. Mosaic Law and to be ruled by the judges were what the Lord wanted for the Israelites. But sin breeds more selfishness and more blindness, and so they wanted a worldly king (King Saul). The Lord told Samuel that Israel did not reject Samuel, but they had rejected the Lord and the Lord’s plan for their lives. King Saul ended up being one of the worst kings in the history of Israel.

    This Obama Administration is another King Saul. If the United States turns back to God, the Lord will raise up another King David, so that we can get rid of demonic strongholds in high places.

    Obeying the Lord is internal government; the U.S. Constitution is external government. The internal must come first before the external can be effective.